Quranic createdness
3 years 1 month ago #1126
by apfle
Quranic createdness was created by apfle
I have been reading up various opinions on this topic recently and there's two mainstraim opinions for Sunnis, the first being the kalam nafsi/lafdhi that I'm sure you know of. The second is the (current) Hanbali view that Allah's Speech is eternal in genus but muhdath for events. So Allah has eternally had the ability to speak but the Qur'an itself is muhdath and not eternal. And since the meanings of the Qur'an are part of Allah's knowledge, to say it's created means to say Allah's knowledge of it is created.
My question is, how does the Zaydi/Mu'tazili view compare to the second opinion? I'm guessing it's sort of similar.
My question is, how does the Zaydi/Mu'tazili view compare to the second opinion? I'm guessing it's sort of similar.
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3 years 1 month ago - 3 years 1 month ago #1130
by Imam Rassi Society
Replied by Imam Rassi Society on topic Quranic createdness
Salaams!
Thank you for your question! I guess it would depend on what you mean when you say 'Allah's Speech.' As you said, the idea of Kalaam Nafsi or Kalaam Dhaat is wholly Sunni in origin. It is a way that their theologians attempted to reconcile a problem that they created for themselves. These concepts hold no weight to Zaydis.
The only reference to Allah's Speech in the Qur'an refers to the revelation itself.
Even if one believed in the Kalaam Nafsi concept, one should not confuse the two terms. Proponents of the Kalaam Nafsi argument say that Allah's kalaam consists of no created letters or words, yet they say that the Qur'an (a Book with letters and words) is the speech of Allah. Alhamdulillah, Zaydis have escaped the confusion of terms by not adopting the Kalaam Nafsi view. So questions as to whether Allah's Speech exists eternally with Him or whether the Qur'an reflects the eternal Knowledge of Allah should be addressed to Sunnis, not Zaydis.
And Allah knows best!
IRS
Thank you for your question! I guess it would depend on what you mean when you say 'Allah's Speech.' As you said, the idea of Kalaam Nafsi or Kalaam Dhaat is wholly Sunni in origin. It is a way that their theologians attempted to reconcile a problem that they created for themselves. These concepts hold no weight to Zaydis.
The only reference to Allah's Speech in the Qur'an refers to the revelation itself.
Even if one believed in the Kalaam Nafsi concept, one should not confuse the two terms. Proponents of the Kalaam Nafsi argument say that Allah's kalaam consists of no created letters or words, yet they say that the Qur'an (a Book with letters and words) is the speech of Allah. Alhamdulillah, Zaydis have escaped the confusion of terms by not adopting the Kalaam Nafsi view. So questions as to whether Allah's Speech exists eternally with Him or whether the Qur'an reflects the eternal Knowledge of Allah should be addressed to Sunnis, not Zaydis.
And Allah knows best!
IRS
Last edit: 3 years 1 month ago by Imam Rassi Society.
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3 years 1 month ago #1131
by apfle
Replied by apfle on topic Quranic createdness
Jazakallah for your answer. One thing I'd like to add is Zaydis do believe in Allah's eternal foreknowledge of everything right? One accusation that I've heard is that you don't
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3 years 1 month ago #1132
by Imam Rassi Society
Replied by Imam Rassi Society on topic Quranic createdness
yes. We say that Allah's knowledge is an essential attribute so it is not limited to time and space. The accusation you heard is false.
And Allah knows best!
IRS
And Allah knows best!
IRS
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3 years 1 month ago #1138
by apfle
Replied by apfle on topic Quranic createdness
Jazakallah again. Here's a famous statement among the Sunnis from Imam Ahmad b. Hanbal:
"Whoever says that The Qurān is created, then for us he is a kāfir. Because the Qurān is from the Knowledge of Allāh, The Mighty and Majestic and in it are The Names of Allāh, The Mighty and Majestic."
Now obviously this doesn't apply here because because no one actually believes Allah's knowledge is created, so what was the reason the early Ahl Al Hadith had such an extreme reaction and even chain takfir on this issue?
"Whoever says that The Qurān is created, then for us he is a kāfir. Because the Qurān is from the Knowledge of Allāh, The Mighty and Majestic and in it are The Names of Allāh, The Mighty and Majestic."
Now obviously this doesn't apply here because because no one actually believes Allah's knowledge is created, so what was the reason the early Ahl Al Hadith had such an extreme reaction and even chain takfir on this issue?
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3 years 3 weeks ago #1143
by Imam Rassi Society
Replied by Imam Rassi Society on topic Quranic createdness
Thanks for your question!
I'm not sure of the reason. I guess that would be a question for the Sunnis to answer.
I suppose that the reason behind the confusion is the misapplication of the attribute of Allah's Speech. If you, for example, hold to the view that the Speech of Allah is an essential attribute that negates the deficiency of dumbness, you would necessitate belief in such eternal quality. The negation of the belief in an essential quality or attribute denotes kufr.
There are various responses to such faulty reasoning; however, it would suffice to say that dumbness is not the only opposite to speech. There is also silence. Silence, although an opposite of speech, does not convey a deficiency. rather, it asserts that both speech and silence are optional and not essential. That withstanding, Allah's attribute of speech (or the conveyance of His divine will) or His silence does not represent an essential quality that abides with him eternally. This is just another understanding.
And Allah knows best!
IRS
I'm not sure of the reason. I guess that would be a question for the Sunnis to answer.
I suppose that the reason behind the confusion is the misapplication of the attribute of Allah's Speech. If you, for example, hold to the view that the Speech of Allah is an essential attribute that negates the deficiency of dumbness, you would necessitate belief in such eternal quality. The negation of the belief in an essential quality or attribute denotes kufr.
There are various responses to such faulty reasoning; however, it would suffice to say that dumbness is not the only opposite to speech. There is also silence. Silence, although an opposite of speech, does not convey a deficiency. rather, it asserts that both speech and silence are optional and not essential. That withstanding, Allah's attribute of speech (or the conveyance of His divine will) or His silence does not represent an essential quality that abides with him eternally. This is just another understanding.
And Allah knows best!
IRS
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