How do Zaydis account for the 12 Imams?
8 years 8 months ago - 8 years 8 months ago #627
by Pro-Alid
How do Zaydis account for the 12 Imams? was created by Pro-Alid
Salamu alaykum,
Zaydis believe in five infallibles (the Prophet, Fatimah, Imam Ali, Imam Hassan & Imam Hussayn) which is established through the hadith of Ahl al-Kisa. However, Twelvers extend this line of infallibility to include nine more Imams:
1. Imam Ali Zayn Al-Abidin
2. Imam Muhammad Al-Baqir
3. Imam Ja’far Al-Sadiq
4. Imam Musa Al-Kadhim
5. Imam Ali Al-Ridha
6. Imam Muhammad Al-Jawad
7. Imam Ali Al-Hadi
8. Imam Hasan Al-Askari
9. Imam Muhammad ibn Hasan al-Askari
My question is, did any of the nine Imams which have been listed above ever claim to be Imams or have some sort of infallibility, or are these false ideas that were later attributed to them after they all died (with the exception of the last Imam who they claim is the Mahdi and in occultation)? If these ideas were circulating during their lifetime, is there any record of them denying such infallibility?
Zaydis believe in five infallibles (the Prophet, Fatimah, Imam Ali, Imam Hassan & Imam Hussayn) which is established through the hadith of Ahl al-Kisa. However, Twelvers extend this line of infallibility to include nine more Imams:
1. Imam Ali Zayn Al-Abidin
2. Imam Muhammad Al-Baqir
3. Imam Ja’far Al-Sadiq
4. Imam Musa Al-Kadhim
5. Imam Ali Al-Ridha
6. Imam Muhammad Al-Jawad
7. Imam Ali Al-Hadi
8. Imam Hasan Al-Askari
9. Imam Muhammad ibn Hasan al-Askari
My question is, did any of the nine Imams which have been listed above ever claim to be Imams or have some sort of infallibility, or are these false ideas that were later attributed to them after they all died (with the exception of the last Imam who they claim is the Mahdi and in occultation)? If these ideas were circulating during their lifetime, is there any record of them denying such infallibility?
Last edit: 8 years 8 months ago by Pro-Alid.
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8 years 8 months ago #629
by Imam Rassi Society
Replied by Imam Rassi Society on topic How do Zaydis account for the 12 Imams?
Wa alaykum as salaam!
Thank you for your question! According to Zaydi sources, Imams Zayn al-Abideen, al-Baaqir, as-Saadiq and al-Kaazim, upon them be peace, never claimed the imamate for themselves. Imam Ali b. Musa ar-Reda, upon him be peace, claimed the imamate for himself and is therefore considered an Imam obligatory to obey by the Ummah, similar to Imams Zayd, Muhammad Nafs az-Zakiyya and al-Haadi, upon them be peace.
As for the last four, I haven't come across anything either praiseworthy or blameworthy regarding them. There is a reference in Radd ala ar-Raafida where Imam al-Qaasim ar-Rassi, upon him be peace, mentioned an imam who usurped the money of his followers. Some have said that this refers to either Muhammad al-Jawad or Ali al-Haadi. But Allah knows best!
IRS
Thank you for your question! According to Zaydi sources, Imams Zayn al-Abideen, al-Baaqir, as-Saadiq and al-Kaazim, upon them be peace, never claimed the imamate for themselves. Imam Ali b. Musa ar-Reda, upon him be peace, claimed the imamate for himself and is therefore considered an Imam obligatory to obey by the Ummah, similar to Imams Zayd, Muhammad Nafs az-Zakiyya and al-Haadi, upon them be peace.
As for the last four, I haven't come across anything either praiseworthy or blameworthy regarding them. There is a reference in Radd ala ar-Raafida where Imam al-Qaasim ar-Rassi, upon him be peace, mentioned an imam who usurped the money of his followers. Some have said that this refers to either Muhammad al-Jawad or Ali al-Haadi. But Allah knows best!
IRS
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8 years 8 months ago #631
by Pro-Alid
Replied by Pro-Alid on topic How do Zaydis account for the 12 Imams?
Thank you for your reply.
Does this mean Imam Ali Al-Ridha also claimed infallibility or are you saying that he only put himself forward as a ruler?
So there is a report in Radd ala ar-Raafida which says either the ninth or tenth Imam for the Twelvers stole the money of his followers? Does the report actually mention the names of these two Imams or have their names just been inferred by Zaydi commentators? Also, how authoritative is the Radd ala ar-Raafida for Zaydis?
Does this mean Imam Ali Al-Ridha also claimed infallibility or are you saying that he only put himself forward as a ruler?
So there is a report in Radd ala ar-Raafida which says either the ninth or tenth Imam for the Twelvers stole the money of his followers? Does the report actually mention the names of these two Imams or have their names just been inferred by Zaydi commentators? Also, how authoritative is the Radd ala ar-Raafida for Zaydis?
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8 years 7 months ago #634
by Imam Rassi Society
Replied by Imam Rassi Society on topic How do Zaydis account for the 12 Imams?
Thank you for your question!
We have no records of Imam Ali b. Musa ar-Reda, upon him be peace, claiming infallibility. Imam ar-Reda, upon him be peace, accepted the conditions of being placed forward as imam by the Abbasid Caliph.
Just a quick correction, the text I was referring to is Radd 'ala ar-Rawaafid and not Radd 'ala ar-Raafida. Both texts were authored by Imam ar-Rassi, upon him be peace; however, it was in Radd 'ala ar-Rawaafid that reference was made. As for the reference in Radd 'ala ar-Rawaafid, some Zaydi and non-Zaydi commentators say that the one who misappropriated the wealth of the followers was Ali an-Naqi. However, with all due respect, I have reason to believe that this is not the case for the following reasons:
1. The text Radd 'ala ar-Rawaafid begins by listing the various sects of the Rawaafid and the 12ers are listed among them. It must be remembered that the term Rawaafid did not refer to the 12ers exclusively then, although it refers to them exclusively now.
2. In the text, the imam faults the Rawaafid for appointing child imams and mentions ‘the sons of Ali b. Musa’ and that their master is nine generations from the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny. This refers to Muhammad al-Jawad and Ali an-Naqi. However, elsewhere he faults them for having an imam in occultation. This may refer to Muhammad ibn al-Hasan known as the Mahdi. This may also refer to one of the other imams of the Isma’iliya who were also known to go in occultation. So how can he be accusing Ali an-Naqi of usurping money when he also refers to the imams after him?
3. He never explicitly mentioned Ali an-Naqi in connection to taking people’s money. He simply refers to someone taking his followers’ money. This was a common claim that Zaydis charged against corrupt Ismai’li imams.
As for its authenticity and its authority, there is no known criticism of its attribution to Imam al-Qaasim ar-Rassi, upon him be peace. It has been referred to by our imams and scholars as the statements of Imam ar-Rassi, upon him be peace. The text is also the earliest known Zaydi refutation of Imami Shia doctrines.
And Allah knows best!
IRS
We have no records of Imam Ali b. Musa ar-Reda, upon him be peace, claiming infallibility. Imam ar-Reda, upon him be peace, accepted the conditions of being placed forward as imam by the Abbasid Caliph.
Just a quick correction, the text I was referring to is Radd 'ala ar-Rawaafid and not Radd 'ala ar-Raafida. Both texts were authored by Imam ar-Rassi, upon him be peace; however, it was in Radd 'ala ar-Rawaafid that reference was made. As for the reference in Radd 'ala ar-Rawaafid, some Zaydi and non-Zaydi commentators say that the one who misappropriated the wealth of the followers was Ali an-Naqi. However, with all due respect, I have reason to believe that this is not the case for the following reasons:
1. The text Radd 'ala ar-Rawaafid begins by listing the various sects of the Rawaafid and the 12ers are listed among them. It must be remembered that the term Rawaafid did not refer to the 12ers exclusively then, although it refers to them exclusively now.
2. In the text, the imam faults the Rawaafid for appointing child imams and mentions ‘the sons of Ali b. Musa’ and that their master is nine generations from the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny. This refers to Muhammad al-Jawad and Ali an-Naqi. However, elsewhere he faults them for having an imam in occultation. This may refer to Muhammad ibn al-Hasan known as the Mahdi. This may also refer to one of the other imams of the Isma’iliya who were also known to go in occultation. So how can he be accusing Ali an-Naqi of usurping money when he also refers to the imams after him?
3. He never explicitly mentioned Ali an-Naqi in connection to taking people’s money. He simply refers to someone taking his followers’ money. This was a common claim that Zaydis charged against corrupt Ismai’li imams.
As for its authenticity and its authority, there is no known criticism of its attribution to Imam al-Qaasim ar-Rassi, upon him be peace. It has been referred to by our imams and scholars as the statements of Imam ar-Rassi, upon him be peace. The text is also the earliest known Zaydi refutation of Imami Shia doctrines.
And Allah knows best!
IRS
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