Salaat & Hadeeth
8 years 1 month ago #123
by Anwar
Salaat & Hadeeth was created by Anwar
As-salaamu 'Alaykum,
I don't mean to make this long, but I am currently a disillusioned Quranist Muslim. I FULLY believe in the Qur'an as God's message. What I am having trouble with is both the tendency of other Quranists as well as the traditions of more established Muslim schools. I do not believe that any hadeeth has religious authority aside from how it may be able to offer an interesting, yet redundant, interpretation of the Qur'an. Aahad hadeeth are admittedly possibly false. And Mutawaatir hadeeth obviosly cannot contradict each other or the Qur'an, but the Quran emphasizes its sole religious authority.
Quranists as a whole are Western-phile Occidentalists who are extreme liberals and really don't care about what the Quran says about forming a conservative and exclusive community of Muslims who follow it and respect the Classical Arabic language it was revealed in. And established Muslims have TOO many traditions based on Aahad hadeeth (apostasy punishments, stoning, particulars of prayer etc. etc). It seems that the very concept of 5 prayers a day comes from the aahaad hadeeth of the Ascension, which in some ways are an insult to our intelligence as well as God's prophets, especially Moses (saas). At most I can see 3 prayers in the Quran. And all of the verses about prayer seem to be able to be reduced to 2 times for prayer, when speaking of Salaat only. I however, recognize the possibility of dulooku-sh-shams as zawaalu-shamsi and it referring to afternoon time. I have not even seen a logical explanation for the idea of rak3ah as unit of prayer with standing, bowing, standing and prostrating twice, when rak3ah linguistically just mean to bow once.
I can understand that the early Muslims wanted to agree on some practices but it seems that too much has been made obligatory and that much of that obligatory practice is not well founded at all. I have been looking at Ibadhi and Shia Islam lately. I have an issue with the infallibility of Imams and the idea that they are a madh-har of God by bloodline.However, surat al-quraysh does imply an obligation to the Quraysh which can be interpreted in different ways.
I am also confused about whether the sayings of Ahl-Al bayt are hadeeth themselves and if they are Aahad or mutawaatir hadeeth, since Shias quote these Imam's so much.
I say that all to say that I think Shia Islam is capable of answering these questions much better than Sunni Islam and possibly even Ibadhi Islam and I would like to see what the Zaydi Shias have to say on these issues.
Thank you for entertaining this letter and Salaamun 3alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh.
I don't mean to make this long, but I am currently a disillusioned Quranist Muslim. I FULLY believe in the Qur'an as God's message. What I am having trouble with is both the tendency of other Quranists as well as the traditions of more established Muslim schools. I do not believe that any hadeeth has religious authority aside from how it may be able to offer an interesting, yet redundant, interpretation of the Qur'an. Aahad hadeeth are admittedly possibly false. And Mutawaatir hadeeth obviosly cannot contradict each other or the Qur'an, but the Quran emphasizes its sole religious authority.
Quranists as a whole are Western-phile Occidentalists who are extreme liberals and really don't care about what the Quran says about forming a conservative and exclusive community of Muslims who follow it and respect the Classical Arabic language it was revealed in. And established Muslims have TOO many traditions based on Aahad hadeeth (apostasy punishments, stoning, particulars of prayer etc. etc). It seems that the very concept of 5 prayers a day comes from the aahaad hadeeth of the Ascension, which in some ways are an insult to our intelligence as well as God's prophets, especially Moses (saas). At most I can see 3 prayers in the Quran. And all of the verses about prayer seem to be able to be reduced to 2 times for prayer, when speaking of Salaat only. I however, recognize the possibility of dulooku-sh-shams as zawaalu-shamsi and it referring to afternoon time. I have not even seen a logical explanation for the idea of rak3ah as unit of prayer with standing, bowing, standing and prostrating twice, when rak3ah linguistically just mean to bow once.
I can understand that the early Muslims wanted to agree on some practices but it seems that too much has been made obligatory and that much of that obligatory practice is not well founded at all. I have been looking at Ibadhi and Shia Islam lately. I have an issue with the infallibility of Imams and the idea that they are a madh-har of God by bloodline.However, surat al-quraysh does imply an obligation to the Quraysh which can be interpreted in different ways.
I am also confused about whether the sayings of Ahl-Al bayt are hadeeth themselves and if they are Aahad or mutawaatir hadeeth, since Shias quote these Imam's so much.
I say that all to say that I think Shia Islam is capable of answering these questions much better than Sunni Islam and possibly even Ibadhi Islam and I would like to see what the Zaydi Shias have to say on these issues.
Thank you for entertaining this letter and Salaamun 3alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh.
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8 years 1 month ago #125
by Imam Rassi Society
Replied by Imam Rassi Society on topic Salaat & Hadeeth
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu!
Thank you for your question and points! As for the Quranist position, as you mentioned, we agree that there is no authority in respects to aqeeda and fiqh as strong as the Quran. So, any point of disagreement between the Quran and ahadith, we give the Quran more precedence. Many Muslims claim the same thing but they take their ahadith over the Quran in many matters.
As for aqeeda, if you were to ask the majority of Muslims whether a disobedient Muslim will exit Hell or remain, they would reply that disobedient Muslims would exit despite the fact that the Quran says otherwise. You can refer to this article . Similarly,in terms of fiqh, the majority of Muslims believe in the validity of wiping over the leather socks despite the fact that the Quran says that the feet should be washed. It is therefore an established principle of Zaydi usul that the Quran is preferred over ahadith in such matters.
However, ahadith does have its place in the explanation of the Quran. For example, in the verse {The Jews say: "Ezra is God's son."} (Q. 9:30) it is implied that all Jews believe that Ezra is God's son; however, this is not the case as you could ask any religious Jew or research the Jewish faith and see that Judaism never advocated that Ezra was God's son. Someone can use this as a proof against the authenticity of the Quran because it seemingly says something that is not true. However, when we consult the ahadith we see that this statement was made by a Jew named Finhas, and Allah referred to his statement as the statement of {the Jews}. It is not uncommon for Allah to refer to an individual in the plural in the Quran. For reasons like this and others, there is a need for ahadith to explicate those things that need explanation.
On a side note, as for the numbers of the prayers from the Quran, one of our imams Imam al-Hadi Yahya bin al-Hussein (as) proved from the Quran that the prayers are five in his book Al-Muntakhab. The summary of his argument is thus: Allah says {Preserve the prayers and the middle prayer} (Q. 2:238). Imam al-Hadi (as) said that there cannot be a middle prayer unless there were five. This is because if there were three prayers, it would not be grammatically correct to use the plural of the word “prayers.” This is because if one omits the {middle prayer} from three prayers, that would leave only two prayers which is the dual tense and not the plural tense. However, the minimum number of odd prayers that could be is five because if we omit the {middle prayer} that would leave four which is plural in Arabic grammar. May Allah bless Imam al-Hadi (as)! How true is the mutawatir hadith from the Prophet ((The two of them (i.e. the Quran and Ahlul Bayt) will not separate from each other until they reach the fount of Kawthar))!
There are other fiqh issues in which the Zaydi madhhab base their position on the Quran despite the existence of seemingly contrary ahadith. Take a look at this translation we did especially the footnotes in which we cited both Quran and ahadith in support of our positions.
Zaydis differ from the 12ers in that we do not see our imams as infallible or greater than the Prophets (as). The imams are simply custodians of the Prophetic legacy. If they state anything contrary to the Quran or the consensus of their ancestors from Ahlul Bayt (as) we reject it. The only imams whose solitary statements form a proof are: Ali, al-Hassan and al-Hussein, upon them be peace. We explained that here . The statement of every other imam is subject to scrutiny.
Therefore, we can humbly say that the Zaydi School is the most Quranic with the Ibadhis maybe being the second. Aside from the other evidences that we cited, even if we look at the question of succession to the Prophet salla Allahu alayhi wa alihi wa sallam, our position is most Quranic. I ask the following question: Which position does the Quran support most: Allah choosing the ruler of the community or the people choosing? Please refer to the verse: {Their Prophet said to them: "(Allah) hath appointed Talut as king over you." They said: "How can he exercise authority over us when we are better fitted than he to exercise authority, and he is not even gifted, with wealth in abundance?" He said: "(Allah) hath Chosen him above you, and hath gifted him abundantly with knowledge and bodily prowess: Allah Granteth His authority to whom He pleaseth. Allah careth for all, and He knoweth all things."} (Q. 2:247 Yusuf Ali) In this holy verse, Allah says that it is He who chooses the ruler and informs the people of this ruler through the tongue of His Prophet. Not only that, the holy verse also says that the people would have chosen someone else, however, the choice is with Allah. I can't think of any other proof that is this evident regarding the choice of the Prophet's successor! However, others (including the Ibadhis) claim that the people have more right to choose and justify the choice of Abu Bakr. This is why we say that the Zaydi School is most Quranic.
I’m not sure if we answered all of your concerns. If not, feel free to send more questions and we will try our best to respond, inshaAllah.
May Allah guide us to that which is most right!
And Allah knows best!
IRS
Thank you for your question and points! As for the Quranist position, as you mentioned, we agree that there is no authority in respects to aqeeda and fiqh as strong as the Quran. So, any point of disagreement between the Quran and ahadith, we give the Quran more precedence. Many Muslims claim the same thing but they take their ahadith over the Quran in many matters.
As for aqeeda, if you were to ask the majority of Muslims whether a disobedient Muslim will exit Hell or remain, they would reply that disobedient Muslims would exit despite the fact that the Quran says otherwise. You can refer to this article . Similarly,in terms of fiqh, the majority of Muslims believe in the validity of wiping over the leather socks despite the fact that the Quran says that the feet should be washed. It is therefore an established principle of Zaydi usul that the Quran is preferred over ahadith in such matters.
However, ahadith does have its place in the explanation of the Quran. For example, in the verse {The Jews say: "Ezra is God's son."} (Q. 9:30) it is implied that all Jews believe that Ezra is God's son; however, this is not the case as you could ask any religious Jew or research the Jewish faith and see that Judaism never advocated that Ezra was God's son. Someone can use this as a proof against the authenticity of the Quran because it seemingly says something that is not true. However, when we consult the ahadith we see that this statement was made by a Jew named Finhas, and Allah referred to his statement as the statement of {the Jews}. It is not uncommon for Allah to refer to an individual in the plural in the Quran. For reasons like this and others, there is a need for ahadith to explicate those things that need explanation.
On a side note, as for the numbers of the prayers from the Quran, one of our imams Imam al-Hadi Yahya bin al-Hussein (as) proved from the Quran that the prayers are five in his book Al-Muntakhab. The summary of his argument is thus: Allah says {Preserve the prayers and the middle prayer} (Q. 2:238). Imam al-Hadi (as) said that there cannot be a middle prayer unless there were five. This is because if there were three prayers, it would not be grammatically correct to use the plural of the word “prayers.” This is because if one omits the {middle prayer} from three prayers, that would leave only two prayers which is the dual tense and not the plural tense. However, the minimum number of odd prayers that could be is five because if we omit the {middle prayer} that would leave four which is plural in Arabic grammar. May Allah bless Imam al-Hadi (as)! How true is the mutawatir hadith from the Prophet ((The two of them (i.e. the Quran and Ahlul Bayt) will not separate from each other until they reach the fount of Kawthar))!
There are other fiqh issues in which the Zaydi madhhab base their position on the Quran despite the existence of seemingly contrary ahadith. Take a look at this translation we did especially the footnotes in which we cited both Quran and ahadith in support of our positions.
Zaydis differ from the 12ers in that we do not see our imams as infallible or greater than the Prophets (as). The imams are simply custodians of the Prophetic legacy. If they state anything contrary to the Quran or the consensus of their ancestors from Ahlul Bayt (as) we reject it. The only imams whose solitary statements form a proof are: Ali, al-Hassan and al-Hussein, upon them be peace. We explained that here . The statement of every other imam is subject to scrutiny.
Therefore, we can humbly say that the Zaydi School is the most Quranic with the Ibadhis maybe being the second. Aside from the other evidences that we cited, even if we look at the question of succession to the Prophet salla Allahu alayhi wa alihi wa sallam, our position is most Quranic. I ask the following question: Which position does the Quran support most: Allah choosing the ruler of the community or the people choosing? Please refer to the verse: {Their Prophet said to them: "(Allah) hath appointed Talut as king over you." They said: "How can he exercise authority over us when we are better fitted than he to exercise authority, and he is not even gifted, with wealth in abundance?" He said: "(Allah) hath Chosen him above you, and hath gifted him abundantly with knowledge and bodily prowess: Allah Granteth His authority to whom He pleaseth. Allah careth for all, and He knoweth all things."} (Q. 2:247 Yusuf Ali) In this holy verse, Allah says that it is He who chooses the ruler and informs the people of this ruler through the tongue of His Prophet. Not only that, the holy verse also says that the people would have chosen someone else, however, the choice is with Allah. I can't think of any other proof that is this evident regarding the choice of the Prophet's successor! However, others (including the Ibadhis) claim that the people have more right to choose and justify the choice of Abu Bakr. This is why we say that the Zaydi School is most Quranic.
I’m not sure if we answered all of your concerns. If not, feel free to send more questions and we will try our best to respond, inshaAllah.
May Allah guide us to that which is most right!
And Allah knows best!
IRS
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8 years 1 month ago #128
by Anwar
Replied by Anwar on topic Salaat & Hadeeth
Please go into more detail about this:
Imam al-Hadi Yahya bin al-Hussein (as) proved from the Quran that the prayers are five in his book Al-Muntakhab. The summary of his argument is thus: Allah says {Preserve the prayers and the middle prayer} (Q. 2:238). Imam al-Hadi (as) said that there cannot be a middle prayer unless there were five. This is because if there were three prayers, it would not be grammatically correct to use the plural of the word “prayers.” This is because if one omits the {middle prayer} from three prayers, that would leave only two prayers which is the dual tense and not the plural tense.
Also please explain more the comparison with Talut?
Imam al-Hadi Yahya bin al-Hussein (as) proved from the Quran that the prayers are five in his book Al-Muntakhab. The summary of his argument is thus: Allah says {Preserve the prayers and the middle prayer} (Q. 2:238). Imam al-Hadi (as) said that there cannot be a middle prayer unless there were five. This is because if there were three prayers, it would not be grammatically correct to use the plural of the word “prayers.” This is because if one omits the {middle prayer} from three prayers, that would leave only two prayers which is the dual tense and not the plural tense.
Also please explain more the comparison with Talut?
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8 years 1 month ago #130
by Imam Rassi Society
Replied by Imam Rassi Society on topic Salaat & Hadeeth
Ok. The imam (as) is basically saying that if the holy verse indicates that there are a number of prayers and that there is a {middle prayer} it necessitates that they are an odd number of prayers. That number can be three, five, seven and so forth. It is impossible that there be an even number of prayers due to the existence of a {middle prayer}.
So, if we were to assume that the number of prayers is three, that would be a problem grammatically because if we omit the {middle prayer} from the total that would leave two prayers and in Arabic grammar, two prayers cannot be termed "prayers" in the plural. Arabic grammar has single, dual and plural.
Why would we omit the {middle prayer}? This is because the holy verse mentions the prayers in plural and then singles out the {middle prayer} with the conjunctive {and}. Ok. Since the prayers cannot be three for the reasons we mentioned, that leaves five, seven, nine, etc.
We must omit the possibility of seven, nine and higher because whenever a number is mentioned in Arabic, we assume that it is the least unless clearly stated that it is more. For example, if I were to tell an Arab that I have children (awlaad) he would automatically assume that I have at least three because I did not use the dual tense nor specify the number. Therefore, the number of prayers must be five because I eliminated the possibility of three and I didn't specify more than five. Hopefully, this is clearer.
As for the reference to Talut, I mentioned that to illustrate that the only instance in the Quran of the selection of a leader/ruler is that of Talut and Bani Israel. Therefore, the only Quranic answer to the question of succession to the Prophet is that the Prophet, salla Allahu alayhi wa alihi wa sallam, informed the believers of their ruler and they did not have the choice.
I'm sure that as a fellow lover of the Quran, you know that the accounts and stories mentioned in the Quran are not haphazardly mentioned as bedtime stories or randomly futile tales. They are mentioned because Allah has a purpose in mentioning them. Allah says that they are ibra, examples from which we take lessons. Therefore, one is forced to ask "Why would Allah mention the example of Talut and the Bani Israel? What is the wisdom in mentioning this instance?" SubhanaAllah! If you refer to the verse in question, you will see the many lessons that Allah teaches us!
In the holy verse, the people said after their king was selected "How can he be given authority over him when we are more deserving of it than him? He does not even have abundant wealth!" Wasn't that the argument of those who preceded Ali (as)? Didn't many of them boast of abundant wealth and saw themselves more fitting for the position of rule? However, their Prophet said to the Bani Israel "Allah chose him over you and increased him abundantly in knowledge and strength!" Not one of the Companions could boast that he was more knowledgeable than Ali or that they killed more enemies than him!
Hopefully this helps! And Allah knows best!
IRS
So, if we were to assume that the number of prayers is three, that would be a problem grammatically because if we omit the {middle prayer} from the total that would leave two prayers and in Arabic grammar, two prayers cannot be termed "prayers" in the plural. Arabic grammar has single, dual and plural.
Why would we omit the {middle prayer}? This is because the holy verse mentions the prayers in plural and then singles out the {middle prayer} with the conjunctive {and}. Ok. Since the prayers cannot be three for the reasons we mentioned, that leaves five, seven, nine, etc.
We must omit the possibility of seven, nine and higher because whenever a number is mentioned in Arabic, we assume that it is the least unless clearly stated that it is more. For example, if I were to tell an Arab that I have children (awlaad) he would automatically assume that I have at least three because I did not use the dual tense nor specify the number. Therefore, the number of prayers must be five because I eliminated the possibility of three and I didn't specify more than five. Hopefully, this is clearer.
As for the reference to Talut, I mentioned that to illustrate that the only instance in the Quran of the selection of a leader/ruler is that of Talut and Bani Israel. Therefore, the only Quranic answer to the question of succession to the Prophet is that the Prophet, salla Allahu alayhi wa alihi wa sallam, informed the believers of their ruler and they did not have the choice.
I'm sure that as a fellow lover of the Quran, you know that the accounts and stories mentioned in the Quran are not haphazardly mentioned as bedtime stories or randomly futile tales. They are mentioned because Allah has a purpose in mentioning them. Allah says that they are ibra, examples from which we take lessons. Therefore, one is forced to ask "Why would Allah mention the example of Talut and the Bani Israel? What is the wisdom in mentioning this instance?" SubhanaAllah! If you refer to the verse in question, you will see the many lessons that Allah teaches us!
In the holy verse, the people said after their king was selected "How can he be given authority over him when we are more deserving of it than him? He does not even have abundant wealth!" Wasn't that the argument of those who preceded Ali (as)? Didn't many of them boast of abundant wealth and saw themselves more fitting for the position of rule? However, their Prophet said to the Bani Israel "Allah chose him over you and increased him abundantly in knowledge and strength!" Not one of the Companions could boast that he was more knowledgeable than Ali or that they killed more enemies than him!
Hopefully this helps! And Allah knows best!
IRS
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8 years 1 month ago #136
by Anwar
Replied by Anwar on topic Salaat & Hadeeth
Thank you for expounding on the topic of Talut.
As it refers to the 5 prayers I find the logic of the following strange:
Why would we omit the {middle prayer}? This is because the holy verse mentions the prayers in plural and then singles out the {middle prayer} with the conjunctive {and}. Ok. Since the prayers cannot be three for the reasons we mentioned, that leaves five, seven, nine, etc.
I never saw the 'wa' as separating but rather as highlighting. Would you say that is incorrect?
Salaam
As it refers to the 5 prayers I find the logic of the following strange:
Why would we omit the {middle prayer}? This is because the holy verse mentions the prayers in plural and then singles out the {middle prayer} with the conjunctive {and}. Ok. Since the prayers cannot be three for the reasons we mentioned, that leaves five, seven, nine, etc.
I never saw the 'wa' as separating but rather as highlighting. Would you say that is incorrect?
Salaam
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8 years 1 month ago - 8 years 1 month ago #137
by Imam Rassi Society
Replied by Imam Rassi Society on topic Salaat & Hadeeth
Thank you for your question! As for the conjunctive {and} in the verse, it is can be used to specify however, the specification can be used to omit the specified from the general. By stating {...the prayers and the middle prayer} the middle prayer--although a prayer--it doesn't have to be included in {the prayers} just because it is a prayer. Similarly, Allah says: {Whoever is an enemy of Allah, His Angels, His Messengers, Gabriel and Michael; verily Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers} (Q. 2:98). Although, He states {His Angels} , He later says {Gabriel and Michael}. This demonstrates that even though Gabriel and Michael are Angels, He specifies them by stating their names. This implies that Gabriel and Michael are excluded from the other Angels mentioned although they are Angels. Similar is stated in Q 66:4 where Allah mentions Gabriel and the Angels although Gabriel is an Angel. This excludes Gabriel specifically from the rest of the Angels. For this reason, we say that because {the middle prayer} is differentiated from {...the prayers by the {and}, it is to be excluded from the prayers.
Even if we were to include {the middle prayer} with the {prayers} in the verse, the number of prayers can only be five due to the existence of proof from other verses. As we mentioned, the number of prayers has to be an odd number due to the existence of a middle prayer. Allah says elsewhere in the Quran: {Establish the prayers at the two ends of the day and the approaches of night...} (Q. 11:114). This means that the number of prayers has to be at least four due to the dual of the word {two ends of the day} and plural {the approaches of night}. Another verse that indicates four prayers is {Glorified be Allah when you reach the evening and when you reach the morning. And to Him belong the praise in the heavens and the earth in the late noon and when you reach the noon} (Q. 30:17-18). But since there can only be an odd number as we previously mentioned, the number of prayers has to be at least five.
And Allah knows best!
IRS
Even if we were to include {the middle prayer} with the {prayers} in the verse, the number of prayers can only be five due to the existence of proof from other verses. As we mentioned, the number of prayers has to be an odd number due to the existence of a middle prayer. Allah says elsewhere in the Quran: {Establish the prayers at the two ends of the day and the approaches of night...} (Q. 11:114). This means that the number of prayers has to be at least four due to the dual of the word {two ends of the day} and plural {the approaches of night}. Another verse that indicates four prayers is {Glorified be Allah when you reach the evening and when you reach the morning. And to Him belong the praise in the heavens and the earth in the late noon and when you reach the noon} (Q. 30:17-18). But since there can only be an odd number as we previously mentioned, the number of prayers has to be at least five.
And Allah knows best!
IRS
Last edit: 8 years 1 month ago by Imam Rassi Society.
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