Zaydi v/s 12ver

2 years 10 months ago - 2 years 10 months ago #638 by noork
Zaydi v/s 12ver was created by noork
Asaalam Alikum,

What is the position of Zaydi view of Caliph Ali ibn Abu talib being designated as the successor of The Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). As it is mentioned in Al-Islam.Org: Link >

1) ''Zayd clearly denied that there was an explicit Nass or designation of 'Ali by Muhammad,(1) or that there was any designation of the next Imam by the preceding one. Nor did Muhammad an-Nafs az-Zakiya or his brother Ibrahim ever resort to the principle of Nass from any preceding authority'' (See Ibn Hazm's discussion in Friedlander, “The Heterodoxies of the Shi'ites in the Presentation of Ibn Hazm”, JAOS, XXVI II ('907), p.74)

2) “that the story of the Kufan Shi'is abandoning Zayd for Ja'far shows that they already accepted the idea of a line of Imams by inheritance.”(Hodgson, “How Did the Early Shi'a Become Sectarian ?”, JAOS ('955), p.10)

3) Could you elaborate on the ''Nass'' of Caliph Ali and why 12ver mainstream shia have the understanding that Zaydi shia Muslim reject Caliph Ali's divinely inherited succession via Nass while Rafidhi do not, is there any misunderstanding or was this belief an early zaydi concept? Also, could this be from a shia position with shia reasoning?

4) 12ver also understand that Zaid ibn Ali has no authority of spritual leadership and that leadership only belongs to the decendants of Imam Hussain and not the decendants of Imam Al-Hassan Mujtaba: ''Ja'far emphatically denied any share in the religious leadership of the community for the descendants of Hasan' (Kulayni, Kafi, I, p.274) < is there any specific reason why the decendants of Imam Hassan AS are not considered to be worthy of leadership in 12ver shia Islam while in sunni Islam and Zaydi shiasm they do for example Malik ibn Anas and Abu Hanifah (s) both accepted the zaydi concept?

thank you, Salam
Last edit: 2 years 10 months ago by noork.

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2 years 10 months ago #644 by Imam Rassi Society
Replied by Imam Rassi Society on topic Zaydi v/s 12ver
Wa alaykum as salaam wa rahma!

Thank you for your question! We addressed the issue of explicit vs implicit designation here and here . It includes the statements of Imam Zayd, upon him be peace, and other early imams.

As for the claim that Imam Muhammad b. Abdullah an-Nafs az-Zakiyya and Imam Yahya b. Abdullah an-Nafs ar-Radiyya, upon them be peace, did not adhere to the concept of nass, this is a statement without proof. On the contrary, according to Zaydi sources, the two aforementioned imams did indeed hold to the idea of the explicit designation of Ali, upon him be peace. One of our chief scholars of hadith, Muhammad b. Suleiman al-Kufi narrated on the authorities of both imams from their ancestors to Ali that Allah's Messenger, peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny, said about him: ((He is your imam after me...)). I cannot think of any other statement that indicates explicit designation other than this! Therefore, there is no doubt that Imams Muhammad b. Abdullah and Yahya b. Abdullah ascribed to the explicit designation of Ali, upon him be peace.

The misunderstanding regarding the Zaydi view of nass has to do with either ignorance of early Zaydi thought and material or the confusion of Mu'tazila views with that of Zaydis. Although some imams (such as Imam Yahya b. Hamza and Imam Ahmed b. Yahya) ascribed to the implicit designation, their individual views cannot be said to represent Zaydism as a whole. We mentioned the earliest Zaydi views so that should be sufficient. As for the confusion between the Zaydi views and the Mu'tazila, the latter held to the view that the caliphates of the first three were legitimate although they agreed that Ali was unparalleled in virtue. As Shia, the Zaydis were not interested in exculpating the first three caliphs or justifying their actions. Therefore, you do not find in early Zaydi/Imami polemics any defense of the first three caliphates. Because the Mu'tazila were non-Shia, the onus of justifying and vindicating the first three was on the Mu'tazila not the Zaydis. To counter the apparent contradiction between the unparalleled virtue of Ali and the caliphates of the first three, they adopted two doctrines: the leadership of the less virtuous and the implicit designation. It was by these two doctrines that they were able to excuse the first three caliphs from preceding Ali, upon him be peace. It is only in the Mu'tazila and Mu'tazila-influenced trends among later Zaydis that there was this tendency. After all--they argued--if Allah's Messenger, peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny, did not make the appointment of Ali clear and explicit, the actions of the first three were justified and legitimate. However, if the appointment was said to be explicit, that which took place twenty-five years or so from the death of the Prophet would be extremely problematic to say the least.

As for the argument regarding the Imamate in the line of Imam al-Hasan, this is a point of disagreement between Imamis and Zaydis as you said. The Zaydis hold to the imamate of the descendants of al-Hasan and al-Hussein, peace be upon them, due to the fact that there is nothing that restricts the descendants of Imam al-Hasan from Imamate--either textually or intellectually. In fact there was a debate that took place between one of our scholars, Allama Ahmed b. Musa at-Tabari, and an Imami. The Imami asked him to prove the Imamate of the descendants of al-Hasan, upon him be peace. Allama at-Tabari responded by saying that both Isaac and Isma'il were brothers and they shared in Prophethood. There was a long line of Prophets from the line of Isaac, upon him be peace, but Prophethood similarly continued through the line of Isma'il, upon him be peace. So how is it that nubuwwa can be transferred through the lines of two brothers but not imaama? Needless to say, the Imami was silenced.

And Allah knows best!


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1 year 11 months ago #883 by YaMahdi98
Replied by YaMahdi98 on topic Zaydi v/s 12ver
Asalam alikum ahki is that I'm jafari Shia and just want to know what is the prove that Zayd ibn Ali AS said that he was the Imam or did he revolt on behalf of his brother Imam Al Baqid AS and my next question do zaydi believe that the holy prophets and his pure progeny can intercede for you an the day if judgement and what hadiths do zaydi follow and I myself been interest in learning about the school of Zayd ibn Ali Al Shaid AS I always feel like the school of Imam Al Saqid AS was right and is are their any zaydi Shia Islamic schools and are the houthis bad people like daesh or no and is Abdul Malik Al Houthi related to the holy prophet in anyway and what is the believe Imam Mahdi AS in the zaydi school and do zaydi pray the same way as jafari do or different

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1 year 8 months ago #891 by admin
Replied by admin on topic Zaydi v/s 12ver
Wa alaykum asalam wa rahamt Allah

For proof and discussion of the Imamate in Zaidism please refer to this link a translation of the Imamate section in the book Sublime Answers to the Iraqis Questions:

In Zaidism we do not believe that anyone can intercede from entering Hellfire (May Allah protect us) but intercession might happen between the levels of paradise. The proof of this are many in the quran:
وَاتَّقُواْ يَوْماً لاَّ تَجْزِي نَفْسٌ عَن نَّفْسٍ شَيْئاً وَلاَ يُقْبَلُ مِنْهَا شَفَاعَةٌ وَلاَ يُؤْخَذُ مِنْهَا عَدْلٌ وَلاَ هُمْ يُنصَرُونَ.
“And be on your guard against a day when one soul shall not avail another in the least, neither shall intercession on its behalf be accepted, nor shall any compensation be taken from it, nor shall they be helped.”(Surah Baqarah, 2 :48)

وَاتَّقُواْ يَوْماً لاَّ تَجْزِي نَفْسٌ عَن نَّفْسٍ شَيْئاً وَلاَ يُقْبَلُ مِنْهَا عَدْلٌ وَلاَ تَنفَعُهَا شَفَاعَةٌ وَلاَ هُمْ يُنصَرُونَ.
“And be on your guard against a day when no soul shall avail another in the least neither shall any compensation be accepted from it, nor shall intercession profit it, nor shall they be helped.” (Surah Baqarah, 2:123)

And Allah knows best

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